SluggoBear

"It's just a website. Why are you making such a big deal out of this?"

The question has been posed to me several times, so I thought I'd respond.

YES, it's just a website. YES, I could simply delete my account and use another service. YES, it's a business, and Greg can run it however he likes.

I can't speak for others, but here's why *I* am making a big fuss about the Bear411 bullshit.

Over time I've become aware of situations that I felt were simply not right. Some of these situations were just annoying. Others were just plain poor business practices. Still others are actually upsetting to me.
I have personally experienced censorship and abysmal technical support. (Greg himself has brushed me-off multiple times when I reported technical problems, despite the fact that I was a paid member. It's a great way to piss-off your customers.)
A storm of frustrated customers was already brewing, but nothing was happening to fix it. (At least, not on any large scale.) There were some big sparks in the last few weeks, so I began to contribute to the fray. (I wish I could've been the one that spawned this little rebellion, but there were many others who started this battle long ago.) I contribute to this snowball not because I want to follow the herd; rather, I feel I am contributing, in a small way, to a protest of sorts. Greg would not listen to me, but maybe he'll listen when hundreds of people jump ship. As this firestorm becomes larger, more people become aware of the abuses, and more people will leave. If the "movement" becomes large enough, we can finally explore other options.
It's a pet peeve of mine when people do things that deceive the public. Greg has made this an art form, and that is no exaggeration. Nearly ALL of my friends were unaware that messages were screened and blocked.
Yes, I could've walked away and joined another service, but none of the other services have the numbers that Bear411 had.

On a somewhat-related note. To anyone who thinks Bear411 is only for hooking-up... how can I say this politely? That's just wrong. I have been using it to keep in touch with friends. Yes, some guys are there just to hook-up, but my experience was that it was used mostly for just chatting. (And Bear411 was great because you could chat in a way that didn't demand the immediate attention that an AOL Instant Messenger-type interface required.)

Now. Why do I keep plugging BearCiti? First let me say that I have no vested interest in seeing BearCiti succeed; I don't make money from them, and until recently, I didn't even know the webmaster. But of all the services out there, I believe this one is by far the best, it has a great interface, and it has tremendous momentum and buzz right now. It has a lot to offer. Based on my conversations with the webmaster, I can tell that he is open to suggestions and genuinely concerned about bug reports. I don't foresee BearCiti abusing their customers the way Bear411 does.

Ahh, now wait... perhaps I do have an interest in seeing BearCiti succeed. For purely selfish reasons, it would be nice to have all the guys (that I like to chat with) in one place. I don't have time to actively log-on to multiple sites (or instant messengers) all the time. I will admit that Bear411 filled that niche ("one-stop shopping?") nicely for awhile. But now it can be no longer...

Now, onto other Bear411 news.

Somebody did it! (And NO, it wasn't me.)
Bear411sucks.com

Looks like Greg is also running some other sites... same interface. (Just an interesting tidbit, not condeming here.)
GAY411.com (also GUY4LOVE.com and GUY4SEX.com)

More discussion and reports:
http://mrpandabehr.livejournal.com/80295.html
http://technocowboy.livejournal.com/582626.html
http://bobaloo.livejournal.com/526560.html
http://bearinslc.livejournal.com/40403.html
http://stage-crafter.livejournal.com/42521.html
http://kingfuraday.livejournal.com/237015.html
http://crazyolemoose.livejournal.com/44257.html

Now that I've said all this, let me also add. This little "battle" does not occupy a large portion of my life, and I am not losing sleep over it. (And no, I don't plan to keep my blog a 24-hour anti-411 campaign for much longer.)

(And Rob, dear, if you're reading this post, I don't EVER want to hear you complain about being tired of reading about Bear411 again!)

Tags: bear411

( 12 comments — Leave a comment )

profundis

2007-02-06 05:06 am (UTC)

"It's just a website. Why are you making such a big deal out of this?"

This kind of comment always makes me laugh. If it's so inconsequential why are you giving me grief about making a big deal?

kingfuraday

2007-02-06 10:59 am (UTC)

You hit it right on the money, Bear. I gotta tell you my goodbye idea for 411 too ;-)

thefreek

2007-02-06 01:32 pm (UTC)

Just wanted to let you know that I link to this post from here:

http://community.livejournal.com/badbearprofiles/120226.html

and from my own journal. Hope you don't mind.

bearinslc

2007-02-06 02:46 pm (UTC)

I got that same responce. They didn't get it that bad service should be returned in kind. Not only refuse to pay for the website but let others know as well.

I do say, since my profile has been deleted, I haven't missed it at all. I've convinced a lot of my friends to add profiles else where so I'm not seeing a difference

Bear411 did have some value

pulsecub

2007-02-06 06:54 pm (UTC)

I am likely walking away from Bear411 as well, Mike. But I do have to say, in defense of what Greg created, and what it allowed the community to do, that if it weren't for Bear411, I wouldn't know any of you. See, it was on Bear411 where I met Dave, who introduced me to Richard, who got me the gig at Hairrison 2005, where I met my "family" (

e_ticket, Chris, Frank,

bigreddee,

redbeardedblond,

bigsabu, etc.), where I got encouraged to create an LJ, which in turn, is how I met the rest of you all.

So, while I have become disgruntled with his tactics, and the near-extortionist practices (I mean, c'mon, it can't cost that much to run the site by comparison to BMB, etc.) Greg has resorted to, I will always be greatful to Bear411 for giving me the family I should have had from birth.

Re: Bear411 did have some value

speedypete312

2007-02-07 03:42 am (UTC)

it's nice that bear411 gave you a means to find that elusive family, but it shouldn't be a family that continues to support a website well known for its body fascism. when i was coming out i was rejected by bear411 a number of times, presumably because i wasn't a bear. and for an asian american already occupying the shadow of an exceedingly westernized masculine model, that rejection was understandably painful. community building really doesn't have to be so potentially shitty.

i'd like to think most of the bear community is up in arms about bear411's exclusionary practices, and not simply on account of poor technical support and the bottom dollar. it would give me more hope for queer sociality in general -- beyond the particulars of my experience, at least (and i'm happily partnered to a bear who disidentifies with the scene, so it's not as if i'm really savoring this soapboax)

my 2 cents.

2007-02-07 05:01 am (UTC)

Peter, what I think is particularly fascinating regarding your reply is the use of two little words: "Body fascism."
The "bear" movement was (in-part) born out of a frustration with the body fascism of the rest of gay male society. We didn't fit the "model" of a gay man: slim, trim, muscled, impeccably groomed (i.e. clean-shaven). The "bear" movement was supposed to welcome everyone irregardless of their body shape, size, or distinguishing characteristics. And for the most part, I think it continues to do that. But (and you knew there had to be a "but" in here somewhere), we're just as guilty of practicing "body fascism" within the "bear" community as are those who drove us to band together as "bears" in the first place. If you don't believe me, why do we have "A-list bears," or all the other variations on the body "bear:" musclebear, chub, grizzly, etc...
The flaw is not in the "bear" movement, or in Bear411, or even Greg himself; it's a human flaw and it requires all of us to overcome it.
Now, I'm not condoning Greg's practices — not in the least! Andy and Bill over at BMB don't exclude anyone from setting up a profile, whether they be a bear, a muslebear, or a bear admirer. And they don't extort large sums of money from their members in order to make full use of the Website (which, IMO, Greg does with his exorbitant fees). If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they are able to do it through ad revenue, which Greg should be able to do as well. Why he can't is a mystery to me. The only explanation I can think of is pure greed.

2007-02-07 06:51 pm (UTC)

i totally agree with you. i'm somewhat versed on the bear movement's history (as much as an outsider born in the late 70's can be versed), and to me it's especially sad that the counterhegemonic sentiment that sparked the movement has over time been supervened by a reenactment of the scenarios that were such a problem in the first place.

i suppose in the grand scheme of things this is how all identities comes into being -- through alienation, reactionary disidentification, and narcissistic circumscription -- it's just a bummer that collectives, once they solidify, so easily forget what it's like to be 'Other.' call that a necessarily human feature or a limit in our capacity to imagine collective/historical memory, still sucks.

that said, i am a fan of BMB :)

2007-02-07 11:57 pm (UTC)

One thing sprang to mind; it's a quote, but I don't remember who said it:

"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

And we have.